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	<title>Comments on: Noncommercial Isn&#8217;t the Problem, ShareAlike Is</title>
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	<link>http://opencontent.org/blog/archives/347</link>
	<description>pragmatism over zeal</description>
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		<title>By: Rayne</title>
		<link>http://opencontent.org/blog/archives/347/comment-page-1#comment-41474</link>
		<dc:creator>Rayne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2008 17:45:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://opencontent.org/blog/archives/347#comment-41474</guid>
		<description>For the guy who asked about the collective&#039;s rights overriding the individual&#039;s rights, I think that such an analogy doesn&#039;t include the other gorilla in the room: that of the corporate owners of media that can&#039;t be redistributed, recommercialized or remixed by anyone without the express permission, blessing and license (all of which require monetary payment) of the content owner. They hold the greater share of media repositories and the greater amount of resources to create more media (compared to the copyleft media commons), and none of it is legally granted to the paying users of their material - just &quot;rented&quot;.

I don&#039;t think that the GFDL restricts one from including derivatives similarly-licensed media whose licenses don&#039;t provide any further restrictions on usage than what the GFDL allows, provided that a clear distinction can be recognized between the origins of either component in the same meedia. The CC-by-ND, I have no idea about if it has such compatibility with non-conflicting permissive licenses.

For the record, the Wikimedia Commons, unless it previously did when you wrote this, doesn&#039;t allow for media that restricts commercial or derivative uses to be submitted. So no CC-by-ND or CC-by-NC stuff is uploaded or present on there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For the guy who asked about the collective&#8217;s rights overriding the individual&#8217;s rights, I think that such an analogy doesn&#8217;t include the other gorilla in the room: that of the corporate owners of media that can&#8217;t be redistributed, recommercialized or remixed by anyone without the express permission, blessing and license (all of which require monetary payment) of the content owner. They hold the greater share of media repositories and the greater amount of resources to create more media (compared to the copyleft media commons), and none of it is legally granted to the paying users of their material &#8211; just &#8220;rented&#8221;.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think that the GFDL restricts one from including derivatives similarly-licensed media whose licenses don&#8217;t provide any further restrictions on usage than what the GFDL allows, provided that a clear distinction can be recognized between the origins of either component in the same meedia. The CC-by-ND, I have no idea about if it has such compatibility with non-conflicting permissive licenses.</p>
<p>For the record, the Wikimedia Commons, unless it previously did when you wrote this, doesn&#8217;t allow for media that restricts commercial or derivative uses to be submitted. So no CC-by-ND or CC-by-NC stuff is uploaded or present on there.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Jacobson</title>
		<link>http://opencontent.org/blog/archives/347/comment-page-1#comment-41335</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Jacobson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Jun 2008 07:44:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://opencontent.org/blog/archives/347#comment-41335</guid>
		<description>Thanks for this analysis.  I finally finished reading it and it presents an important perspective on the SA element and CC licenses as a whole (my main focus at the moment).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for this analysis.  I finally finished reading it and it presents an important perspective on the SA element and CC licenses as a whole (my main focus at the moment).</p>
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		<title>By: When you find out you&#8217;re talking to yourself :( Share Alike &#171; Learn Online</title>
		<link>http://opencontent.org/blog/archives/347/comment-page-1#comment-35047</link>
		<dc:creator>When you find out you&#8217;re talking to yourself :( Share Alike &#171; Learn Online</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jul 2007 08:22:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://opencontent.org/blog/archives/347#comment-35047</guid>
		<description>[...] July 27th, 2007 in wikieducator, wikiversity, copyright, censorship   I finally made it up to Dave Wiley in my terribly over crowded news reader&#8230; only to be let down by him  I found a volley of [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] July 27th, 2007 in wikieducator, wikiversity, copyright, censorship   I finally made it up to Dave Wiley in my terribly over crowded news reader&#8230; only to be let down by him  I found a volley of [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Teemu</title>
		<link>http://opencontent.org/blog/archives/347/comment-page-1#comment-35029</link>
		<dc:creator>Teemu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jul 2007 07:26:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://opencontent.org/blog/archives/347#comment-35029</guid>
		<description>I think Stephen&#039;s democracy analogy is so brilliant that I do not have much to add, except my standard answer: to protect freedom for all you need restrictions. &quot;Share alike&quot; is such a restriction. Also such things as arms laws and the idea of universal right to education are &quot;restrictions&quot; protecting freedom for all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Stephen&#8217;s democracy analogy is so brilliant that I do not have much to add, except my standard answer: to protect freedom for all you need restrictions. &#8220;Share alike&#8221; is such a restriction. Also such things as arms laws and the idea of universal right to education are &#8220;restrictions&#8221; protecting freedom for all.</p>
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		<title>By: Blogue du GTA &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Sommes-nous liÃ©s dans notre choix de licence de propriÃ©tÃ© intellectuelle?</title>
		<link>http://opencontent.org/blog/archives/347/comment-page-1#comment-35027</link>
		<dc:creator>Blogue du GTA &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Sommes-nous liÃ©s dans notre choix de licence de propriÃ©tÃ© intellectuelle?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jul 2007 14:00:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://opencontent.org/blog/archives/347#comment-35027</guid>
		<description>[...] David Wiley prÃ©tend que le texte lÃ©gal des licences Creative Commons et GFDL de la Free Software Foundation, ou licence de documentation libre GNU - de l&#8217;anglais GNU Free Documentation License - empÃªche les utilisateurs de librement rÃ©utiliser les contenus publiÃ©s sous ces licences. En effet, selon Wiley, un contenu publiÃ© sous licence CC ne saurait Ãªtre repris et mÃ©langÃ© avec un contenu publiÃ© sous licence GFDL. Le coupable en serait la clause copyleft de chacune de ces approches Ã  la propriÃ©tÃ© intellectuelle. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] David Wiley prÃ©tend que le texte lÃ©gal des licences Creative Commons et GFDL de la Free Software Foundation, ou licence de documentation libre GNU &#8211; de l&#8217;anglais GNU Free Documentation License &#8211; empÃªche les utilisateurs de librement rÃ©utiliser les contenus publiÃ©s sous ces licences. En effet, selon Wiley, un contenu publiÃ© sous licence CC ne saurait Ãªtre repris et mÃ©langÃ© avec un contenu publiÃ© sous licence GFDL. Le coupable en serait la clause copyleft de chacune de ces approches Ã  la propriÃ©tÃ© intellectuelle. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tarmo Toikkanen</title>
		<link>http://opencontent.org/blog/archives/347/comment-page-1#comment-35026</link>
		<dc:creator>Tarmo Toikkanen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jul 2007 13:47:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://opencontent.org/blog/archives/347#comment-35026</guid>
		<description>How about multi-licensing? If I were to publish everything I make in GFDL, CC-BY-SA, and let&#039;s say Apache and GPLv3 just to round out the mix, then anyone can choose which of these licenses (yes, any or all of them) to use when distributing his derived works.

But yes, I share your pain. In building LeMill, an educational resource sharing and remixing site, we&#039;ve had to lock all content into one single license (CC-BY-SA) because allowing several licenses would make the remixing job a legal license hell.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How about multi-licensing? If I were to publish everything I make in GFDL, CC-BY-SA, and let&#8217;s say Apache and GPLv3 just to round out the mix, then anyone can choose which of these licenses (yes, any or all of them) to use when distributing his derived works.</p>
<p>But yes, I share your pain. In building LeMill, an educational resource sharing and remixing site, we&#8217;ve had to lock all content into one single license (CC-BY-SA) because allowing several licenses would make the remixing job a legal license hell.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: OLDaily[ä¸­æ–‡ç‰ˆ] &#187; Blog Archive &#187; 2007å¹´7æœˆ18æ—¥</title>
		<link>http://opencontent.org/blog/archives/347/comment-page-1#comment-35013</link>
		<dc:creator>OLDaily[ä¸­æ–‡ç‰ˆ] &#187; Blog Archive &#187; 2007å¹´7æœˆ18æ—¥</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jul 2007 15:13:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://opencontent.org/blog/archives/347#comment-35013</guid>
		<description>[...] David Wiley, iterating toward openness July 18, 2007 [åŽŸæ–‡é“¾æŽ¥] [Tags: æ— ] [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] David Wiley, iterating toward openness July 18, 2007 [åŽŸæ–‡é“¾æŽ¥] [Tags: æ— ] [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Wide Open Education &#187; License to share</title>
		<link>http://opencontent.org/blog/archives/347/comment-page-1#comment-35011</link>
		<dc:creator>Wide Open Education &#187; License to share</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jul 2007 02:11:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://opencontent.org/blog/archives/347#comment-35011</guid>
		<description>[...] post is by David Wiley, and it discusses the issue of license incompatibility. One reason for publishing [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] post is by David Wiley, and it discusses the issue of license incompatibility. One reason for publishing [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://opencontent.org/blog/archives/347/comment-page-1#comment-35010</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jul 2007 19:29:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://opencontent.org/blog/archives/347#comment-35010</guid>
		<description>Stephen writes - &quot;Your response is to say, essentially, that democracy means allowing anyone to say anything, to campaign for anything, even if it involves the election of a government that destroys the democracy.&quot;

Since the application of a more restrictive license on a derivative does not retroactively apply to the original, I&#039;m not sure this analogy applies quite the same way. It would be more like someone exploiting the rights and practices of a free society to go someplace and create a more restrictive society within it... and it seems to me more repressive &quot;mini-societies&quot; exist all over the place within Canada and other countries that think they are free societies.

Of course, whether collectives &lt;i&gt;should&lt;/i&gt; be allowed to override individual rights (say, equality of women) is an ongoing argument, at least in western democratic countries. 

I&#039;m still wading through this stuff in my own tiny brain, but it&#039;s hard not to agree that the incompatibility of these licenses is a problem, especially since most of us are working in that &quot;who cares?&quot; camp. I mix components with incompatible licenses all the time, and either people aren&#039;t noticing, or perhaps they are recognising I am doing it in something that seems like &quot;good faith&quot; and cut me some slack.  Obviously, the typical user just getting their head around sharing isn&#039;t going to be able to track this stuff. &quot;Frictionless adaptability&quot; it ain&#039;t...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stephen writes &#8211; &#8220;Your response is to say, essentially, that democracy means allowing anyone to say anything, to campaign for anything, even if it involves the election of a government that destroys the democracy.&#8221;</p>
<p>Since the application of a more restrictive license on a derivative does not retroactively apply to the original, I&#8217;m not sure this analogy applies quite the same way. It would be more like someone exploiting the rights and practices of a free society to go someplace and create a more restrictive society within it&#8230; and it seems to me more repressive &#8220;mini-societies&#8221; exist all over the place within Canada and other countries that think they are free societies.</p>
<p>Of course, whether collectives <i>should</i> be allowed to override individual rights (say, equality of women) is an ongoing argument, at least in western democratic countries. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m still wading through this stuff in my own tiny brain, but it&#8217;s hard not to agree that the incompatibility of these licenses is a problem, especially since most of us are working in that &#8220;who cares?&#8221; camp. I mix components with incompatible licenses all the time, and either people aren&#8217;t noticing, or perhaps they are recognising I am doing it in something that seems like &#8220;good faith&#8221; and cut me some slack.  Obviously, the typical user just getting their head around sharing isn&#8217;t going to be able to track this stuff. &#8220;Frictionless adaptability&#8221; it ain&#8217;t&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Bill</title>
		<link>http://opencontent.org/blog/archives/347/comment-page-1#comment-35008</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jul 2007 02:23:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://opencontent.org/blog/archives/347#comment-35008</guid>
		<description>Er, what Stephen said.  The idea of copyleft/SA is not to restrict those who would remix in good faith, but to prevent profit-taking landgrabbers from removing things from the commons.

I take your point, though, that perhaps downstream users might be given more freedom to choose licences.  I think the current language reflects legal reality, in that if you are not THAT specific about permissible licenses, someone will quickly find a loophole through which to drag your hard work into a commercial dead-end.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Er, what Stephen said.  The idea of copyleft/SA is not to restrict those who would remix in good faith, but to prevent profit-taking landgrabbers from removing things from the commons.</p>
<p>I take your point, though, that perhaps downstream users might be given more freedom to choose licences.  I think the current language reflects legal reality, in that if you are not THAT specific about permissible licenses, someone will quickly find a loophole through which to drag your hard work into a commercial dead-end.</p>
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