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	<title>Comments on: Opting Out of Berne</title>
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	<link>http://opencontent.org/blog/archives/1015</link>
	<description>pragmatism over zeal</description>
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		<title>By: CopyRIGHT, CopyLITE or CopyFREE &#171; Beyond Distance Research Alliance Blog</title>
		<link>http://opencontent.org/blog/archives/1015/comment-page-1#comment-44439</link>
		<dc:creator>CopyRIGHT, CopyLITE or CopyFREE &#171; Beyond Distance Research Alliance Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Oct 2009 18:59:18 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] Some have suggested opting out of the Berne Convention, arguing that CC licences are only watered-down versions of traditional copyright laws. I suggest an alternative solution: instead of copyright laws being automatically in force upon the creation of a work &#8211; a new global convention, CopyFREE &#8211; where the default position is that there is no need for any form of licence. Under copyFREE, the onus would be on creators of works to make a case for their work to be protected from copying. The copyFREE argument would be similar to the &quot;presumed consent&quot; position put forward by the British Medical Association for organ donation, where persons are deemed to have given their consent to organ donation unless they have registered to opt out. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Some have suggested opting out of the Berne Convention, arguing that CC licences are only watered-down versions of traditional copyright laws. I suggest an alternative solution: instead of copyright laws being automatically in force upon the creation of a work &#8211; a new global convention, CopyFREE &#8211; where the default position is that there is no need for any form of licence. Under copyFREE, the onus would be on creators of works to make a case for their work to be protected from copying. The copyFREE argument would be similar to the &#8220;presumed consent&#8221; position put forward by the British Medical Association for organ donation, where persons are deemed to have given their consent to organ donation unless they have registered to opt out. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Leigh Blackall</title>
		<link>http://opencontent.org/blog/archives/1015/comment-page-1#comment-44101</link>
		<dc:creator>Leigh Blackall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 20:48:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://opencontent.org/blog/?p=1015#comment-44101</guid>
		<description>As with Anne and Berne, could it be possible that we might lobby for the original practice of copyright, that being to claim exclusive and restricted rights, one has to mark the work with C. Not making automatically projects the work into the PD?

While I would like to reject copyright outright, the only practical step I see possible is to assign PD to everything. A nuisance, and still a gesture that has to recognise copyright as the norm (because I have to mark with PD).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As with Anne and Berne, could it be possible that we might lobby for the original practice of copyright, that being to claim exclusive and restricted rights, one has to mark the work with C. Not making automatically projects the work into the PD?</p>
<p>While I would like to reject copyright outright, the only practical step I see possible is to assign PD to everything. A nuisance, and still a gesture that has to recognise copyright as the norm (because I have to mark with PD).</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Harris</title>
		<link>http://opencontent.org/blog/archives/1015/comment-page-1#comment-44072</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Harris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Aug 2009 11:05:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://opencontent.org/blog/?p=1015#comment-44072</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m glad you had a great time at OpenEd, and in your conversations with Dave Cormier, but it seems to have left you a little fuzzy on what copyright is and how it works.

Firstly, as I understand it, no, an individual cannot &quot;opt out of Berne&quot;. However, IANAL, just an educated bystander.

Berne is a convention where signatories agree to respect each others laws on copyright. The signatories are nations, not individuals.

The copyright properties, while advocated in Berne, are actually established and enforced through the legislation of individual nations. Copyright is not the same from country to country, which is why there is a 70 year term in one place and a 50 year term &lt;i&gt;for the same work&lt;/i&gt; in another.

What Berne really does is establish a set of base principles that should inform the legislation of each individual country.

To start with, copyright is the exclusive right to make copies of a work for a limited time, known as the term. This right is restrictive, in that it gives the creator of a work a period of time in which they may profit from their work and &lt;i&gt;no-one else can&lt;/i&gt; without their permission. This permission may involve money changing hands, but that is not a requirement or mandated by any copyright regime I am aware of. There are some limited exceptions to this, usually around quoting small sections, and for educational purposes. The exceptions also vary from country to country, which is why you have Berne to serve as a bridge of understanding and mutual respect.

Your understanding of Creative Commons also appears incorrect to me. Public Domain is not a creation of CC - it&#039;s part of copyright. After the term of copyright expires, the work passes automatically into the public domain. What Creative Commons does is it allows you to set up permissions for your work &lt;i&gt;during the term of copyright&lt;/i&gt; so that people know what they can do with it and what extent they can make use of it without having to bother you.

CC is, as you say, an elegant hack on copyright but it&#039;s a hack that requires the underpinning of copyright to work at all. You can&#039;t apply a CC licence to a work that is already in the public domain (say, a novel like &quot;Oliver Twist&quot;) purely because the term of copyright in that work has already expired.  

The PD &quot;licence&quot; you refer to is, in fact, the author (or copyright holder, and they might not be the same person) &quot;opting out&quot; of copyright by publicly forgoing their right to exclusivity and control over a particular work, by placing it &quot;in the public domain&quot;.  That means that I can pick the work up, publish it for money, and not pay a cent to the original creator of the work.  The PD graphic available from CC is recognition of such a circumstance - but the right to create such a circumstance is inherent in copyright.

Some people refer to CC enthusiast as anarchists who want to get rid of copyright. That could not be more wrong - CC needs copyright to exist, like a fish needs water. 

Next, an individual cannot opt out of Berne, because they are not &lt;i&gt;in&lt;/i&gt; Berne. Copyright, for an individual author/songwriter/painter/etc., is part of the law of they country they live in. You can&#039;t opt out of the law of the land (well, you can, but we call those people &quot;criminals&quot;).  

Berne is not the problem you seem to think it is. Copyright existed before the Berne Convention, in many countries and in as many systems. Berne was an attempt to bring some coherence to these systems. The United States was not a signatory to Berne until 1989, but still had a strong copyright regime. Its lack of adherence to Berne meant that US publishers could take works published in Europe and republish them in the USA without paying the European copyright holders a cent. It was not until the 1950&#039;s when more published material was flowing out of America than was coming in, that US publishers started to want some of the Berne-based protections for themselves, and it took another 30 years to sort out how that might happen.

The problem that we face, in the digital age especially, is that some corporations and individuals stand to make large amounts of money from works that were created many years ago, through licensing and merchandising (and, yes, I&#039;m looking directly at you, Disney and the recorded music industry), and they pay and lobby lawmakers to extend the terms for works and make ever more punitive laws to protect their monopolies (e.g. DMCA). Copyright needs reform, yes, but it is in essence a good thing, in my opinion.

Finally, copyright applies to individual works, not people. Each book, film or song is copyright the moment it is written down and it is from that date that the term begins. If an author continues to hold the copyright, the term may (depending on jurisdiction) extend a number of years after his death. If the author assigns his rights to a corporation (like a publisher), the term is reckoned from the date of publication, regardless of the lifespan of the author. 

So an individual cannot take a blanket &quot;opt out&quot; position - you must place each and every work in the public domain, if you want to do that. This is easily done - just include a statement in each work that it is in the public domain.

Your friend Dave says &quot;i need to do more reading on how they decided to do this in the first place.&quot;

Please, both of you - do exactly that. Start with Wikipedia, looking at the UK Statute of Anne 1709 (the first actual copyright legislation), and the Berne Convention, as well as the various copyright entries. Try not to talk about &quot;intellectual property&quot; - it doesn&#039;t exist - copyright is not a property right. Look at copyright for what it is, rather than what you think it might be. Your column above is evidence of the latter, I&#039;m afraid.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m glad you had a great time at OpenEd, and in your conversations with Dave Cormier, but it seems to have left you a little fuzzy on what copyright is and how it works.</p>
<p>Firstly, as I understand it, no, an individual cannot &#8220;opt out of Berne&#8221;. However, IANAL, just an educated bystander.</p>
<p>Berne is a convention where signatories agree to respect each others laws on copyright. The signatories are nations, not individuals.</p>
<p>The copyright properties, while advocated in Berne, are actually established and enforced through the legislation of individual nations. Copyright is not the same from country to country, which is why there is a 70 year term in one place and a 50 year term <i>for the same work</i> in another.</p>
<p>What Berne really does is establish a set of base principles that should inform the legislation of each individual country.</p>
<p>To start with, copyright is the exclusive right to make copies of a work for a limited time, known as the term. This right is restrictive, in that it gives the creator of a work a period of time in which they may profit from their work and <i>no-one else can</i> without their permission. This permission may involve money changing hands, but that is not a requirement or mandated by any copyright regime I am aware of. There are some limited exceptions to this, usually around quoting small sections, and for educational purposes. The exceptions also vary from country to country, which is why you have Berne to serve as a bridge of understanding and mutual respect.</p>
<p>Your understanding of Creative Commons also appears incorrect to me. Public Domain is not a creation of CC &#8211; it&#8217;s part of copyright. After the term of copyright expires, the work passes automatically into the public domain. What Creative Commons does is it allows you to set up permissions for your work <i>during the term of copyright</i> so that people know what they can do with it and what extent they can make use of it without having to bother you.</p>
<p>CC is, as you say, an elegant hack on copyright but it&#8217;s a hack that requires the underpinning of copyright to work at all. You can&#8217;t apply a CC licence to a work that is already in the public domain (say, a novel like &#8220;Oliver Twist&#8221;) purely because the term of copyright in that work has already expired.  </p>
<p>The PD &#8220;licence&#8221; you refer to is, in fact, the author (or copyright holder, and they might not be the same person) &#8220;opting out&#8221; of copyright by publicly forgoing their right to exclusivity and control over a particular work, by placing it &#8220;in the public domain&#8221;.  That means that I can pick the work up, publish it for money, and not pay a cent to the original creator of the work.  The PD graphic available from CC is recognition of such a circumstance &#8211; but the right to create such a circumstance is inherent in copyright.</p>
<p>Some people refer to CC enthusiast as anarchists who want to get rid of copyright. That could not be more wrong &#8211; CC needs copyright to exist, like a fish needs water. </p>
<p>Next, an individual cannot opt out of Berne, because they are not <i>in</i> Berne. Copyright, for an individual author/songwriter/painter/etc., is part of the law of they country they live in. You can&#8217;t opt out of the law of the land (well, you can, but we call those people &#8220;criminals&#8221;).  </p>
<p>Berne is not the problem you seem to think it is. Copyright existed before the Berne Convention, in many countries and in as many systems. Berne was an attempt to bring some coherence to these systems. The United States was not a signatory to Berne until 1989, but still had a strong copyright regime. Its lack of adherence to Berne meant that US publishers could take works published in Europe and republish them in the USA without paying the European copyright holders a cent. It was not until the 1950&#8242;s when more published material was flowing out of America than was coming in, that US publishers started to want some of the Berne-based protections for themselves, and it took another 30 years to sort out how that might happen.</p>
<p>The problem that we face, in the digital age especially, is that some corporations and individuals stand to make large amounts of money from works that were created many years ago, through licensing and merchandising (and, yes, I&#8217;m looking directly at you, Disney and the recorded music industry), and they pay and lobby lawmakers to extend the terms for works and make ever more punitive laws to protect their monopolies (e.g. DMCA). Copyright needs reform, yes, but it is in essence a good thing, in my opinion.</p>
<p>Finally, copyright applies to individual works, not people. Each book, film or song is copyright the moment it is written down and it is from that date that the term begins. If an author continues to hold the copyright, the term may (depending on jurisdiction) extend a number of years after his death. If the author assigns his rights to a corporation (like a publisher), the term is reckoned from the date of publication, regardless of the lifespan of the author. </p>
<p>So an individual cannot take a blanket &#8220;opt out&#8221; position &#8211; you must place each and every work in the public domain, if you want to do that. This is easily done &#8211; just include a statement in each work that it is in the public domain.</p>
<p>Your friend Dave says &#8220;i need to do more reading on how they decided to do this in the first place.&#8221;</p>
<p>Please, both of you &#8211; do exactly that. Start with Wikipedia, looking at the UK Statute of Anne 1709 (the first actual copyright legislation), and the Berne Convention, as well as the various copyright entries. Try not to talk about &#8220;intellectual property&#8221; &#8211; it doesn&#8217;t exist &#8211; copyright is not a property right. Look at copyright for what it is, rather than what you think it might be. Your column above is evidence of the latter, I&#8217;m afraid.</p>
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		<title>By: jrep</title>
		<link>http://opencontent.org/blog/archives/1015/comment-page-1#comment-44066</link>
		<dc:creator>jrep</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Aug 2009 20:59:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://opencontent.org/blog/?p=1015#comment-44066</guid>
		<description>You seem to be chasing two distinct objectives, here, and I think they&#039;ll have very different requirements and expectation of success.

If it&#039;s your goal to ensure that the things you yourself create are not &quot;Berned,&quot; I wouldn&#039;t think it would be so hard, just some sort of blanket declaration of your intent, filed somewhere publicly. It would be nice, though, to repeat or reference the declaration within each work, just so people know where they stand, and doesn&#039;t that get you pretty much right back into the CC space?

If, on the other hand, it&#039;s your goal to change the laws, to get the attention of those who make laws, then you&#039;re going to have to do the politics: contribute the money and spend the time nagging the elected representatives, whip up the grass-roots support, sufficient to out-shout the publishing corporations who&#039;ve always been the main creators, advocates, and beneficiaries of copyright. A tall order.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You seem to be chasing two distinct objectives, here, and I think they&#8217;ll have very different requirements and expectation of success.</p>
<p>If it&#8217;s your goal to ensure that the things you yourself create are not &#8220;Berned,&#8221; I wouldn&#8217;t think it would be so hard, just some sort of blanket declaration of your intent, filed somewhere publicly. It would be nice, though, to repeat or reference the declaration within each work, just so people know where they stand, and doesn&#8217;t that get you pretty much right back into the CC space?</p>
<p>If, on the other hand, it&#8217;s your goal to change the laws, to get the attention of those who make laws, then you&#8217;re going to have to do the politics: contribute the money and spend the time nagging the elected representatives, whip up the grass-roots support, sufficient to out-shout the publishing corporations who&#8217;ve always been the main creators, advocates, and beneficiaries of copyright. A tall order.</p>
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		<title>By: Glyn Moody (glynmoody) 's status on Tuesday, 18-Aug-09 20:22:09 UTC - Identi.ca</title>
		<link>http://opencontent.org/blog/archives/1015/comment-page-1#comment-44065</link>
		<dc:creator>Glyn Moody (glynmoody) 's status on Tuesday, 18-Aug-09 20:22:09 UTC - Identi.ca</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Aug 2009 20:22:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://opencontent.org/blog/?p=1015#comment-44065</guid>
		<description>[...]  http://opencontent.org/blog/archives/1015  [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...]  <a href="http://opencontent.org/blog/archives/1015" rel="nofollow">http://opencontent.org/blog/archives/1015</a>  [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Open Ed 09 – My debutants ball. @ Dave&#8217;s Educational Blog</title>
		<link>http://opencontent.org/blog/archives/1015/comment-page-1#comment-44060</link>
		<dc:creator>Open Ed 09 – My debutants ball. @ Dave&#8217;s Educational Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Aug 2009 12:51:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://opencontent.org/blog/?p=1015#comment-44060</guid>
		<description>[...] away&#8217; content I am first calling myself the creator under the Burne copyright guidelines. I wont replicate David&#8217;s excellent recap of this on his site, but his ideas of declaring a personal exemption from burne is very [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] away&#8217; content I am first calling myself the creator under the Burne copyright guidelines. I wont replicate David&#8217;s excellent recap of this on his site, but his ideas of declaring a personal exemption from burne is very [...]</p>
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		<title>By: dave cormier</title>
		<link>http://opencontent.org/blog/archives/1015/comment-page-1#comment-44051</link>
		<dc:creator>dave cormier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Aug 2009 18:11:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://opencontent.org/blog/?p=1015#comment-44051</guid>
		<description>Absolute pleasure having these conversations with you David. I&#039;ve been thinking about this and re-reading it. It does feel like it makes more sense to opt in then to opt out on a case by base basis. 

I think this blends together with some of our other discussions re: the means of production. And, interestingly, the complexity of production. It does, in a sense, make sense for every novel to have some kind of license on it in the 19th century. The amount of work that went into publishing one and the lack of ability to track illegal copyists might make that necessary... i dunno. For now, the bar on production is very, very low. Opting in seems to make more sense.

Huh. i need to do more reading on how they decided to do this in the first place.

Formally opting out does sound appealing though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Absolute pleasure having these conversations with you David. I&#8217;ve been thinking about this and re-reading it. It does feel like it makes more sense to opt in then to opt out on a case by base basis. </p>
<p>I think this blends together with some of our other discussions re: the means of production. And, interestingly, the complexity of production. It does, in a sense, make sense for every novel to have some kind of license on it in the 19th century. The amount of work that went into publishing one and the lack of ability to track illegal copyists might make that necessary&#8230; i dunno. For now, the bar on production is very, very low. Opting in seems to make more sense.</p>
<p>Huh. i need to do more reading on how they decided to do this in the first place.</p>
<p>Formally opting out does sound appealing though.</p>
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		<title>By: Coercion in Copyright Convention? &#171;</title>
		<link>http://opencontent.org/blog/archives/1015/comment-page-1#comment-44049</link>
		<dc:creator>Coercion in Copyright Convention? &#171;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Aug 2009 22:24:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://opencontent.org/blog/?p=1015#comment-44049</guid>
		<description>[...] 14, 2009 &#183; Leave a Comment  David Wiley has a new post on the Berne Convention, which makes a work fully copyrighted by default. Wiley asks the question [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 14, 2009 &middot; Leave a Comment  David Wiley has a new post on the Berne Convention, which makes a work fully copyrighted by default. Wiley asks the question [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Rick Weible</title>
		<link>http://opencontent.org/blog/archives/1015/comment-page-1#comment-44047</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick Weible</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Aug 2009 15:43:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://opencontent.org/blog/?p=1015#comment-44047</guid>
		<description>How do you identify an original thought? Are thoughts my ideas anyway, or just a remix and extension of the thoughts of others?  If I do not publish my thought is it mine or the first person to publish it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How do you identify an original thought? Are thoughts my ideas anyway, or just a remix and extension of the thoughts of others?  If I do not publish my thought is it mine or the first person to publish it?</p>
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		<title>By: Jared Spurbeck</title>
		<link>http://opencontent.org/blog/archives/1015/comment-page-1#comment-44046</link>
		<dc:creator>Jared Spurbeck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Aug 2009 15:06:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://opencontent.org/blog/?p=1015#comment-44046</guid>
		<description>Your friend&#039;s perspective is enlightening. At the same time, though, opting out of Berne would result in less freedom, not more. Your work could be co-opted by anyone, with no recompense, and could easily have a transformation or two applied to it to make it an original work -- and, thus, copyrightable.

A CC-By-Sa license, on the other hand, preserves your freedoms, not just to do what you like with your work but to have continued access to the common pool of community creativity. That&#039;s because it mandates that those who receive also must give, and keeps things from being transformed and then copyrighted. If there is to be a default, I would prefer that it be this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your friend&#8217;s perspective is enlightening. At the same time, though, opting out of Berne would result in less freedom, not more. Your work could be co-opted by anyone, with no recompense, and could easily have a transformation or two applied to it to make it an original work &#8212; and, thus, copyrightable.</p>
<p>A CC-By-Sa license, on the other hand, preserves your freedoms, not just to do what you like with your work but to have continued access to the common pool of community creativity. That&#8217;s because it mandates that those who receive also must give, and keeps things from being transformed and then copyrighted. If there is to be a default, I would prefer that it be this.</p>
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